The Diamond Formation ( Stop and Go )

[Deleted]

Imagine meeting a group of riders all in perfect diamond formation wearing the latest ATGATT products and on the best motorcycles only to be further impressed by another pack passing by 4 to 6 seconds later using the same diamond riding pattern and so on until a whole rider club passes. Yes, that would be the BMW Riders of Tampa Bay. We have done it a number of times over the last few months and if it’s impressive to me, the rider, I’m sure it is to the occasional spectator. OK, so it is not always perfect but the way to make that a reality every ride is to keep working at it. I’ve had a chance to talk to a number of club members and they all agree the 4 by 4 “diamond formation’ works very well and they want to continue it. Here a few reminders:

• Keep to a maximum of 4 riders in your pack (hold the diamond).
• Know your pack leader’s bike.
• Avoid passing another rider, when you do pass you affect two groups and cause confusion in the ride.
• Wait for the rider behind you at turns.

(Updates made 6-26-12 8:23 pm)

[Deleted]

So, is the club's official policy on group riding that there will be no passing at all during a ride and that once the groups are set there will be no changing of positions?

D

[frankbrown]

This is a little too regimented!!! What next?? Someone going to monitor fuel levels and air pressure??

[Deleted]

Harold; From the feedback I have received from Riders, The stop and Go is well liked by many members. However, I am sure that there are some members that may find the Stop and Go technique too regimented. If that is the case, then they are welcome to meet the group at the ride destination in my opinion. Since we had an issue concerning passing during the most recent pancake ride, the question of passing needs to be clarified and I think this thread is as good as any place to do it.

[Deleted]

I approve of this method as we have done a few group rides in this formation before and everything is more organized and keeps everyone together.

I agree with Harold though that this should be a group decision as it depends on the riders and the situation of the ride.

[Deleted]

" may be a bit harsh"

Gee Harold, I thought I was being inclusive by having them join us at the destination without riding the SNG.

BTW, how do you do that neat quote thing?

[carbone]

Each week the club is getting more comfortable riding in the diamond formation. My only suggestion would be to have the groups of four ride a little tighter. I understand that spacing will expand in the corners but there is really no reason for a group of four to be spread-out out by 100 yards in the straights.

[frankbrown]

Jun 26, 2012 7:57:29 GMT -5 @kbikerider said:

Jun 25, 2012 17:37:20 GMT -5 frankbrown said:

This is a little too regimented!!! What next?? Someone going to monitor fuel levels and air pressure??

Frank, A lot of members enjoy the Stop and Go riding technique. It still needs some work, but provides a safe and fun environment.

No we are not going to check your tire pressure and fuel. But we may address issues like hot dogging in formation, moto GP side to side swoops while in a group riding enviroment, etc.

If you have something to offer, I am all ears. Otherwise, the sarcasm is unproductive.

Harold, I guess I wasn't clear enough. The only new item introduced above (besides the Diamond nomenclature) was 'bullet point #2' which, I believe, is regimented.

Your sarcasm is productive???

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2012 11:07:13 GMT -5 @danielashline said:

So, is the club's official policy on group riding that there will be no passing at all during a ride and that once the groups are set there will be no changing of positions?

D

Dan,

The Stop and Go was a recommended ride approach the club has initiated to improve the safety of the ride and make the process as enjoyable as a group ride can be. The no passing suggestion was already in the original ride guidelines. Based on an investigation of a recent ride, passing was not a significant cause but a result of other ride issues. One day passing can be part of the ride but when it does occur, we end up with two groups that may try to reposition to get back to a 4 pack formation. It just complicates the ride.

If a rider does wish to move in the pack, the best time to do that is when there is a break in the ride during a fuel stop.

[Deleted]

Personally, I can't get through a day without a little sarcasm!

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2012 10:54:51 GMT -5 @smmotorco said:

I approve of this method as we have done a few group rides in this formation before and everything is more organized and keeps everyone together.

I agree with Harold though that this should be a group decision as it depends on the riders and the situation of the ride.

Sasan,

Thanks for the comment. When I'm not leading I have always accepted the ride leader's guidance unless I thought the ride was unsafe. So far every club ride I've been on over the past several months, when we have more than four riders, the ride leader suggests the Stop n Go and everyone agrees. As you suggest there may be ride leaders that chose otherwise.

[rcroft]

The Stop and Go is a proven safety technique for group riding. That said, riding, like life, is fluid. I would think that reason and common sense would allow a rider in a diamond to switch positions at any break, with notice to those in his group and the group leader of the diamond behind, if he is in or moving to 4th position.

I don't think it is intended to be a parade formation on our group rides, with lockstep adherence to inflexible rules. I think it is a safety measure that should encourage good communication, and allow for predictable rider behavior.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2012 17:43:41 GMT -5 frankbrown said:

Jun 26, 2012 7:57:29 GMT -5 @kbikerider said:

Frank, A lot of members enjoy the Stop and Go riding technique. It still needs some work, but provides a safe and fun environment.

No we are not going to check your tire pressure and fuel. But we may address issues like hot dogging in formation, moto GP side to side swoops while in a group riding enviroment, etc.

If you have something to offer, I am all ears. Otherwise, the sarcasm is unproductive.

Harold, I guess I wasn't clear enough. The only new item introduced above (besides the Diamond nomenclature) was 'bullet point #2' which, I believe, is regimented.

Your sarcasm is productive???

Frank,

Good point. I was really stressing knowing the leader of your pack. The restart after a break is another challenge we need to work through. I think I'll drop the last part of that bullet since the stop is where folks can safely move around in the groups.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2012 19:08:36 GMT -5 rcroft said:

The Stop and Go is a proven safety technique for group riding. That said, riding, like life, is fluid. I would think that reason and common sense would allow a rider in a diamond to switch positions at any break, with notice to those in his group and the group leader of the diamond behind, if he is in or moving to 4th position.

I don't think it is intended to be a parade formation on our group rides, with lockstep adherence to inflexible rules. I think it is a safety measure that should encourage good communication, and allow for predictable rider behavior.

Exactly, well said.

[Deleted]

"The no passing suggestion was already in the original ride guidelines."

The original guidelines need to be accessible on this forum(like the club constitution) if not already.

My only comment about moving riding positions around within the groups at a stop is that some riders may not want to be bumped into or out of a particular group.

[Deleted]

I see the safety benefits of the Stop and Go. As long as I don't have to wait too long for the group behind me to catch up, or the group in front slowing me down, its great. That's why having the trip route and the final destination available for anyone who wants it is a good Idea.

[Deleted]

I'm confused. Are my 2 choices 1) Ride in the diamond thing or 2) meet you at the destination ?

[Deleted]

The diamond / 4- pack group riding has been very successful from my opinion, however it requires each group to have a leader and sweep to make it work. From what I have experienced in the large group rides not everyone is willing to step up and be the next group leader or sweep. I have seen sub-group leaders who run up on the previous group and sweeps who fail to wait at turns over and over, obviously they are not willing to leave his/her group afraid to be "left behind" This is a recurring issue which could be attributed to not knowing where the destination is or familiar with the roads, heck that is one the reasons I ride over is for the adventure and knowing that my club mates are going to look out for me and they have

Also as far as riding and sweeping from side to side I find that training technique very usefull for getting the feel of the bike to prepare myself for a potential emergency maneuver when riding in a group which limits visual observations of hazards, I like doing it when riding single, especially when I switch bikes and a LT handles totally different than the Rockster or GSA

Back on subject: we may need to identify folks who are willing to be good trustworthy sub-group sweeps before we head out and not find out those who end up there don't want the responsibilities and start jumping positions. That's my two pences.

Ride safe and have fun while your doing it

[Roger Edwards]

I believe that the SNG/Diamond Formation format for group rides is a good idea. If this method is executed correctly, it is safer for the group and safer for other motorists. Besides safety, following this method appears neat, organized and professional from the standpoint of the general public.

We as motorcyclists all have to some degree a rebellious streak in us because we choose to ride/drive an unconventional vehicle. However, I believe that riding motorcycles in a group should not allow for any more rebelliousness past the fact that we ride motorcycles. The moment we enter a group riding situation, we must understand that the circumstances have changed and our behavior should be modified accordingly.

Up to this point, the consensus is that the SNG/Diamond Formation is a good idea. Ideas are great, but no one is required to adopt the ideology of others. Therefore, I propose to the board of directors that a set of group riding rules including the SNG/Diamond Formation Method be formally written and voted into our bylaws by the general membership of the club.

I don't like more rules any more than most of you. Unfortunately, sometimes rules must be written for those that fail to conform to the norms of a group. Once the rules are passed they can be enforced. It would be at this point that some of you might have a personal decision to make. I would hate to see the club lose any of you over something that appears to be a "no brainer". However, if you aren't concerned about leaving me behind or my safety, maybe it's just better that way.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2012 14:29:41 GMT -5 @frswisher said:

The diamond / 4- pack group riding has been very successful from my opinion, however it requires each group to have a leader and sweep to make it work. From what I have experienced in the large group rides not everyone is willing to step up and be the next group leader or sweep.

This was exactly my point earlier in the thread about passing during group riding. I think that when a group riding guideline is developed, as Roger suggested, posted on this Forum and reviewed by both new and current members, the SNG technique will become second nature to all those that participate in our club group rides.

[BMWRoTB]

Jul 1, 2012 6:40:18 GMT -5 @danielashline said:

Jun 30, 2012 14:29:41 GMT -5 @frswisher said:

The diamond / 4- pack group riding has been very successful from my opinion, however it requires each group to have a leader and sweep to make it work. From what I have experienced in the large group rides not everyone is willing to step up and be the next group leader or sweep.

This was exactly my point earlier in the thread about passing during group riding. I think that when a group riding guideline is developed, as Roger suggested, posted on this Forum and reviewed by both new and current members, the SNG technique will become second nature to all those that participate in our club group rides.

If that was your point Dan, I apologize for completely missing that. Could you point me to that post relating to pack leaders and sweeps. I think that is an issue we need to address. Fred, thanks for the observation. H..

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2012 19:26:16 GMT -5 @danielashline said:

"The no passing suggestion was already in the original ride guidelines."

The original guidelines need to be accessible on this forum(like the club constitution) if not already.

My only comment about moving riding positions around within the groups at a stop is that some riders may not want to be bumped into or out of a particular group.

I was referring to all the riders in a diamond group including the ride leader and sweep. I was trying to include all four group members in my comment without being specific.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2012 17:37:20 GMT -5 frankbrown said:

This is a little too regimented!!! What next?? Someone going to monitor fuel levels and air pressure??

Actually, in most all MC clubs, the ride captain IS responsible for checking tires. Bad rubber? Can't ride with the pack.. Alcohol on your breath? Can't ride with the pack, Stoned?, Can't ride with the pack.

Ran out of gas because you didn't come full? You will only make that mistake once...

Kinda the opposite of the reckless image most people have of MC clubs...

Riding side by side, 80mph with less than a bike length between bikes...ok. A little reckless...